Cold Steel noževi...

Evo da se i ja javim na ovu temu. Pred neki dan kolega sa foruma slučajno naletio na jednoj grupi na fejsu gdje je prodaja da tip prodaje SRK-a za 250kn. Mada se radi o Japanskom AUS8 (a ne o carbonV

Hmmm moj "Lone star hunter" je i slajser i ima tri ad lock Sto se tice aus 8,nije vrh vrhova,ali mnogi kriticari kad prodaju isti taj aus8 ili cak aus 6 naglasavaju -Japanski

SAL GLESSER o kočnici na folderu Military



@NAVI

Any lock can fail. If you didn't hear it. Any lock can fail. (Sal Glesser)



Niže navodim tekst Sala Glessera  o Spydercovoj legendi Military vezano uz kočnicu. Tekst jasno pokazuje da za biti kompetentan i nešto tvrditi nije dovoljno samo nečije iskustvu u rezanju kobasica ili guljenju drva (koliko god je to neophodno) već da su i iskustva koja možeš stići SAMO čitanjem iskusnih knife makera neophodna za kompetentno mišljenje.

Sal Glesser on Military

Good points and good discussion.

I think that it is important to "peel the onion" in making these determinations. Also one must include "time" and refinement" in analysis.

Any lock can fail. If you didn't hear it. Any lock can fail.

Locks are bits of metal cut to very close tolerances and carefully balanced heat treats. The interface area is ciritical.

Failure can occur from error, out of spec, wear (time), dirt affecting the interface, excess force, which bends or coins the interface, etc.

Locks require maintenance, attention, occasional light spine tap to check. In case you didn't hear that, light is the key word. I see many locks that have seen "death by spine-wack". Expectations are often too high in this area, in my opinion. If a light tap defeats the lock, then inspection, cleaning, etc can save the lock. Each time it defeats, it "breaks" a tiny bit more. Continual spine whacking without making a change and expecting a change is not logical. It also ruins the lock.

With that in mind.

Each lock mechanism has advantages and disadvantages. Manufactures continually refine to reduce disadvantages. Eg: We're on our 3rd lock material on our Military in 10 years. As manufacturers learn more, they improve. (time again).

The Walker linerlock has some very nice advantages; easy one hand open and close, smooth action, easy to overcome closing force for easy opening, takes up little space affording far more flexibility in design. Simplicity of concept.

disadvantages; it's difficult to make reliablle. Much attention needs to be paid to the materials and hardness of the blade material (tang) and lock interface. (This is also true of lock-backs, Axis-locks, compression-locks, E-Locks, Reeve-Integral-Locks, ball-bearing-locks, etc).

On the Military we've contually refined this area. We use an offset concave arc ramp for greater reliability. We precisely control angles and hardness of the interface materials. We've gone to dual nested liners (very close tolerance) with focus on greater ridgidity. We could go to a LAWKS like CRKT and we' ve considered it, but at this time, we would prefer to evolve the Walker Linerlock to improve reliability without the addtional parts.

Does this make it perfect? Of course not. Any lock can fail.

But with the constantly improved materials, tolerances, hardness balance, they get better and better.

This is, IMO, true of any lock.

sal

Gene - Thank you. The Military Model was designed to be the "state of the art" Produc tion folder of the time. We believe the 2nd generation version is that. Every one of the many parts in this model was examined and refined. We listen to all of the comments (good and some negative), but our own constant testing enforces our beliefs. We believe that nested liners are more evolved and stronger than separate liners. And more expensive to produce. (Ask for favorite custom maker how much more they will charge you to nest their "full liner" just inside the scale like Spyderco's Military). "Form", in addition to the "pins" create rigidity. It may be possible to "white knuckle" a lock release, but this hasn't happened to our knowledge. Being able to easily close the knife after hard user with gloves on was a major consideration. Any of you that have had a folder lock open and not be able to close it? It's like a chain saw that won't stop...what do you do with it? The new "SecurLok" that Frank Centofante invented is scheduled to be added to the Military Model somethime in '99. This would eliminate the fear of accidental lock release.

The Military Model was not designed as a fighting knife, nor was it designed for suit and tie carry. It was designed to be the most dependable cutting tool accessory a soldier might need while in the "bush". The handle is a little larger to afford the dual grip potential. Design is always a great discussion because there are so many points of view. eg: blades are for cutting, handles are for holding. A 2" blade specifically designed for controlled cutting loses it's ability to control if the handle is only just long enough to cover the blade. Nothing to purchase on. A scalpel is a good example of this. What is the knife designed to do. Look at? by all means, balance the sizes to apperarance, use? tougher problem here. Just one designers point of view. I have avoided responding to this thread as it was my design in question and this was a comparision type question. It would be expected that I would be biased.
sal

Design preferences make the industry interesting. Both Gayle and Ed are of the opinion that the relief is not as safe as no relief. Both are highly skilled at designing knives, making knives and cutting with them. Both are champion cutters in competition. My linerlock designs include a relief. I'm often wearing gloves and I prefer them in general. I've heard many complain about my Military and Sage linerlock designs because they feel the relief is unsafe.

Both approaches are valid. That's why we make both. For those that want a relief, it's easier to create one.

sal

Perhaps "Practice" and "theory" are two legs on the same body, taking turns to move forward.?

Some thoughts to share on the linerlock lock up. Linerlocks are very tricky with the angles of the mating of the tang/lock as well as the hardness of each surface and inheirant qualities of the materials. It is difficult if not impossible to create the right combination that will "lock" properly with light effort and still work well with heavy effort. When one "throws" out the blade using inertia, the force at contact is very great. More oftren than not, such force will push the liner farther over or "tighter" than the light aforementioned pressure was designed for. I would guess that in such a lock up case, the blade was snapped out using inertia and the liner simply locked up too tight to easily unlock. We also found that titanium was a little "grabbier" and "bendier" than steel and even magnified the problem more. I believe that most linerlocks that are opened as designed would probably not have a problem. (assuming geometries and hardness are proper)
sal


Hi Richw,

As mentioned reliability is more important that ultimate strength.

There are quite a few common locks missing from this list. I am curious as to where this hierarchy came from?

sal

We have a dedicated machine that breaks things.

It's automated, consistent in pressure and angle, computerized and gives us printed graphs on the break. It's about as scientific as we could create. We get measurement in total force and inch/lbs per inch of blade length when we're breaking locks. Blade lengths are built into the program.

We can break a lock and be accurate as to less than 1 lb. We use the machine to break locks, blades, etc. When we create a new model, we establish what range the lock strength should be and we test and improve the failed parts until we attain the desired strength.

We build for both reliability and ultimate strength.

Reliability is a matter of engineering and materials and attention to detail is very important in lock reliability.

Ultimate lock strength is affected by design and materials and also required attention to details to achieve success. Testing must be consistent, controlling variables if accurate results are expected.

It's just a knife, right? wrong. A modern cutting edge on a modern knife blade has the potential for a serious cut. A hand is a terrible thing to waste.

Naturally we test the competition, as I'm sure they test ours. I would like to say that all of the main players in our industry, especially those that have been around for a while, Do a good job in their locks. Far better than the industry was able to do 20 years ago.

This is one of those areas where "name" means something. These companies did not acquire their good name and good reputation by putting out poor quality or unsafe products.

Knife Locks are a fascinating study. Close tolerance bits of carefully machined and heat treated parts invented and designed to lock a knife blade into an open and safe postion.

All of the lock designs being used are good, if they're made well. All are less than good if made poorly. All have advantages and disadvantages. You are all knife afi's or you wouldn't be reading this. Enjoy them all.

sal

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Oh, izgleda da je izjednačeno

Ok , nije realno . . ..ALI nije realan ni test od  godpode iz Cold Steel-a  . .. Ajde sada svima nama pojasni u kojoj situaciji upotrebe noza ce doci do izraz taj neverovatan triad lock za koji se slazem da je izvrsno resenje kocnice ? Znaci ja imam frame lock ostricu ti triadd ...sta mozes ti sa tvojim nozem uraditi a ne mogu ja ?

Hm, pa prije ćeš ti sa svojim frejmekom ostati bez prstiju, nego neki korisnik Tri-AD locka. To je dovoljan i nužan razlog za odabir CS.

Svaki nož i svaka brava mogu zakazati.
U predzadnjem videu se radi o tome da je čovjek slučajno pritisnuo tj. otkočio kočnicu dok je radio spine wack što je i sam rekao u komentarima i opisu ispod videa. Nije mi namjera braniti Cold Steel, samo primjećujem da se u tom pojedinom videu ipak ne radi o njihovom fail-u...

Lawman je napisao/la:Hm, pa prije ćeš ti sa svojim frejmekom ostati bez prstiju, nego neki korisnik Tri-AD locka. To je dovoljan i nužan razlog za odabir CS.

Kada , u kojoj situaciji upotrebe noza cu ostati bez prstiju ? Mozes mi navesti JEDNU ? Sta bih radio nozem da popusti frame lock kocnica ? Ili treba da stavim prste na noz dok rade onaj test ??

necu se ni osvrtat na ove amaterske jubito uradke jer i ja mogu izmaltretirat triad prije paljenja kamere pa svima pokazat kak fejla na lagani pritisak ruke(vidim da je roy objasnio kako je triad "fejlao" na trecem videju)

ovi CS testovi su realni sto pokazuje upravo ovaj dvoboj velikana
ja sam se pobojao da ce talwar fejlat prije bedlama u weighthang testu,jer sam ocekivao da je axis jako dobar lock(sto i je)+sto bedlam ima steel linerse u g10 za dodatnu cvrstocu(samim time je i oko 3unca tezi)...medjutoa laksi talwar je pobijedio

koliko god da sam fasciniran cvrstocom axisa u drzanju kila, toliko sam razocaran kako je fejlo na trecem spinewack testu

toliko od mene prije shitstorma i pljuvanja po CS

Postoji još jedna stvar u kojoj je Triad Lock, barem sudeći po testovima i recenzijama na internetu i mom skromnom iskustvu, ispred konkurencije, a o kojoj ovdje nije bilo puno riječi. To je blade play, tj. izostanak istog.
Dok se kod nekih noževa, pogotovo onih sa klasičnim back lock-om, blade play gotovo neizbježno pojavljuje nakon nekog vremena čak i ako se nož kotisti za vrlo lake zadatke, Triad se čini imun ili barem daleko otporniji na taj problem.
Naravno, dobro izvedeni frame lock i axis lock su također vrlo otporni na to kod "normalnog" korištenja, ali kod "nenormalnog" korištenja čini se da se kod njih blade play razvije puno lakše i brže.
Osobno sam batonirao sa CS American Lawman-om, čisto da isprobam taj famozni Triad. Naravno, nije to bila neka ogromna količina supertvrdog drva, niti sam lupao kao manijak, ali bilo je dovoljno za neku okvirnu procjenu. I mogu reći da me ugodno iznenadio. Niti trunka blade play-a, nula. Nož se u rukama osjeća solidno kao da se radi o fiksnom, a ne o folderu. Mislim da se rijetki noževi mogu pohvaliti time nakon takvog zlostavljanja. Zapravo, rijetki se time mogu pohvaliti i u mint stanju.
Batoniranje naravno nije u opisu posla za preklopni nož, ali mislim da se iz toga pokusa može izvući zaključak da će pri "normalnoj" upotrebi nož veoma dugo biti slobodan od blade play-a, duže od većine konkurencije.
Nekima možda blade play i nije toliko bitan, ali ja sam po tom pitanju poprilična picajzla...

@okibex

sad sam pregledao videje koje si postavio kao dokaz kontra triada
pricamo o triad locku pa ova dva sa fiksnim nozevima stoga nije potrebno komentirat(btw imas destruction test bushmana na yt pa pogledaj kaj moze izdrzat:hpy: )

dakle u prvom videu covjek veli da je od otvaranja i zatvaranja fejlo lock...ajmo mu vjerovat...u tom slucaju se vjerojatno radi o lemonu jer sam otvarao i zatvarao desetak CS sa triadom i ni jedan nije fejlo:loool:
drugi video je zapravo pohvala triadu jer je lik izbatonirao ovece komade drveta bez da je lock fejlao:red: njemu je prilikom batoniranja s folderom za koje se svi slazemo da je normalna upotreba preklopnog noza pukla ostrica
u rajah3 videu ko sto je roy napomenuo autor videa u komentarima priznaje da je slucajno stisnuo kocnicu prilikom testa i da je to normalno njegova greska i da je triad odlicna kocnica
u posljednjem videu(mini ak47) se vidi da je covjek skinuo coating sa noza pa pretpostavljam da ga je rastavljao i sastavljao ocito ne bas uspjesno(u svakom slucaju ne vidimo prilikom cega se pojavio problem s doticnom kocnicom)

Nije bitno kako, došlo je do faila.
Znaš film 300? Kad Leonida Kserksu skine one pierceove s face? E to je ovo, "i bog krvari", i SC se trga i fejla i ne može se govorit da "uvijek izlazi kao pobjednik i je skroz OK".
Da su toliko savršeni i nadmoćni, ne bi nikad nikakvog faila bilo, makar obični smrtnici koristili nož neprilično izvan "laboratorijskih" uvjeta samog CS-a

Evo ko ne zeli vjerovati Cs videima,vjerujte kolegi royu koji je osobno batonirao sa triadom
@okibex itekako je bitno kako je doslo do fejla na nozu...triad je najjaca kocnica na trzistu al ni ona nije otporna na glupost

Ne postoje savršen nož, savršena kočnica ili savršena marka.
Ali kada govorimo o failovima mislim da je itekako bitno kako je do njih došlo, bez obzira o kojoj se marki ili nožu radilo.
Savršen primjer za to je baš taj video gdje se čovjek porezao sa Rajah III. Nema sumnje da se tu radi o failu, ali mislim da je vrlo bitno je li podbacio korisnik ili sam nož. Čovjek se porezao zato jer je stisnuo kočnicu prilikom spine whacka. Nož ne samo da nije failao, nego je napravio upravo ono što bi i trebao napraviti kada se kočnica stisne - sklopio se. Dakle, nema govora o failu samog noža.
Mislim da je to bitno.

Savjetovao bih Mrazu i vijeću mudraca da obriše, ako to drže potrebnim, postove koji izgledaju troliranje.

Nema potrebe da se brišu ozbiljni postovi jer onda trud forumita koji pišu ozbiljno biva kažnjen a troll uživa.

Na temu snage locka  - ne radi samo Cs testove. Usporedbe radi, navodim neke linkove testova koje radi Benchmade:

Test za BM810 Contego koji je trenutačno moj EDC za "svaki slučaj i priliku":



Potom svakako pogledati test za lock strength za Griptilian:



Poučna rasprava na Cliff Stampovom forumu:

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,8468,8468#msg-8468

Važna pouka koju veli Cliff i koju valja upamtiti:

"REKAT states that the Pioneer II will hold over 1000! lbs "at the pivot"."

This is where the nonsense started to set in as that statistic is meaningless.
Note they stopped citing torques and started using weights which tells you nothing because it is the weight*distance which is relevant. You can make the weight as big as you want by reducing the distance.


Dakle, fizikalno relevantan podatak je broj lbs* inch, a sam broj lbs ne znači ništa!!!

Ima netko da mi svoje pokušaje prijetnji ponovi u lice, pred publikom?????

Pozdrav svima, pošto je zaključana tema o Cold Steel-u morao sam otvoriti novu temu jer me jako zanima Vaše mišljenje o njemu a trebao bi ga kupiti idući tjedan.
Link: http://www.vrhunac.hr/no/noz-leatherneck.html

Pročitavši onih 30tak stranica shvatio sam da tek sad ništa ne znam.
(Ovaj model što ga oni prodaju koji je to čelik i slično, navodno i god proizvodnje ima veze sa čelikom ako sam ja vas dobro shvatio?!)

Isplati li se uzeti ga i posebno me zanima znate li gdje u Zagrebu ga mogu odnijeti na oštrenje da bude kao britva jer sam pročitao da ne dolazi baš naoštren.

Hvala unaprijed

Hm. Ajde da krenemo iz pocetka. Za sto vam noz uopce treba i kako ga planirate koristiti? Ide li uz njega jos kakva oprema (sjekira, pila, maceta)?

Mraz je napisao/la:Hm. Ajde da krenemo iz pocetka. Za sto vam noz uopce treba i kako ga planirate koristiti? Ide li uz njega jos kakva oprema (sjekira, pila, maceta)?

probao bih a i zanima me survival (obična kampiranja mi dosta), imam onu sklopivu pilu, nadam se da će biti dovoljno

Za "survival" i teze zadatke svakako uzeo noz s full tangom i otpornijom drskom (g10, micarta, drvo) koja se nece ostetiti ako se po njoj udri (omrazeni batoning).
Ovaj mi je nekako prevelik a premalen.

Ne znam, gledao sam dosta priloga na Youtube-u o njemu, svi ga hvale pogotovo oštrina i izdržljivost, čuda su s njim radili i izdržao je sve, zato sam htio vidjeti tu s nekim jel ga upotrebljavao i jel istina o tome što govore o njemu ili je to samo reklama.

A gle, ja sam čuo da CS nadmoćno rula, tako da se ne možeš prevariti sa njihovim nožem...






Isprike svima na offu i zajeb...ciji, nisam mogao odoliti...

Ima još iedna stvar kaj se tog noža tiče. Pošto jako dobro svi znamo da kinezi sve živo i neživo kopiraju, kako biti siguran da je to stvarno njihov nož a ne kineska kopija?! (link dućana u prvom postu)
Kad već dajem tolike pare da sam barem mrvicu sigurniji neg inače (možda to nekome i nije puno para ali nekima i je ;-) )
Nek se dečki iz firme ne naljute ali svašta sam viđao po dućanima u HR, ima li kakva fora kod takvog noža da se skuži razlika kopije od originala?

pozz

u našim dućanima a pogotovu u Vrhuncu mogu reći sa 99% sigurnosti da nećete kupiti kopiju, Maestral vam je prije bio zastupnik za Cold steel pa moete i kod njih pogledati...

To šta opisujete pod "čuda su sa njim radili i izdržao je" , mislim da vam je dojam takav jer inaće niste "nožarsku" scenu proučavali pa vam to izgleda kao nešto ozbiljno...

Obično ako se priča o survivalu se podrazumijeva i batoning drva, lupanje sa komadom drva po kičmi ili leđima noža da prepolovite nešto šta ste izrezali ili precijepali, što je nož tanji to će lošije odraživati taj posao jer mu je kontaktna površina velika....

Zato vas je kolega Mraz pitao šta točno mislite raditi sa nožem...

Planiram kad god uhvatim vremena otići par dana a možda i na dan (sve ovisi o poslu) na kampiranja tipa survival, znači sve ono što se pod tim podrazumijeva. Nož će mi naravno služiti za sve što ste naveli i zato sam se odlučio na njega zbog svih recenzija sa interneta (uglavnom s youtube-a) jer sam gledao što su sve radili s njim i svi su ga hvalili. Pogotovo ovo što ste naveli za lupanje drvetom po kičmi ili leđima noža, izdržao je i više :-)

e da.... hvala puno na odgovoru za kopiju, sad sam mirniji što se tog dijela tiče

Ja bih za "survival" tj. teze radove uvijek uzeo noz sa full tangom i drskom od g10 ili micarte. Ovaj mi je ni vrit ni mimo, prevelik za fine radove a premalen (prelagan, pretanak) za ozbiljne. Ne znam kako je tang na njemu izvedem ali CS je poznat po losem dizajnu tog dijela (rezano pod pravim kutem, nema postepene promjene sirine i/ili radiusa na kutovima).

Ja bih na vasem mjestu pogledao Ka-Bar Becker nozeve, Esee, Ontario, Tops.

isprika na ovim riječima ali jebiga sad.....

svi ovi moji koji se nešto kao kuže u noževe (u svakom slučaju više nego ja) su mi rekli da izbjegavam Ka-Bar, zato ga nisam niti gledao

što više informacija imam, to manje znam        

za relativno malu lovu ka-bar,ontario ili becker,best-buy,esse malo precijenjen.